Tyranid Musings

[Guest]

I think Tyranid players in general have a certain aura of pessimism. If you have a dump truck run over you every Wednesday at noon for 15 years, well  you are going to start hating the noonish part of the day, not to mention those damn dump trucks. Watching a new nid player is like watching a time lapse of somebodies life slowly falling apart.

And that was basically my point in that other thread. I dislike the tyranid player pessimism.

[Guest]

Even with the ITC nerf, being able to guarantee what warlord traits and what psychic powers I can get is a bad idea. The randomness helps mitigate some of the power of those warlord traits and powers.

Maybe. Though it could be also argued that the randomness ensures unbalance from the start.

 

Anyway, we should split this one off, or we'll be doing two topics again (C:SM to tyranid musings to topic X...lol)

[fluger]

I think the idea of staying on topic is silly.

[Guest]

I think the idea of staying on topic is silly.

Yeah, but I did start another thread for that one, anyway.

 

EDIT: here: http://www.ordofanaticus.com/index.php?/topic/25120-higher-point-40k-with-speed-adjustments/

[huggies01]

If you play start playing Nids Paxmiles your view may quickly change. However you could also be the unique masochist that loves it. But I doubt it. It starts to hurt really quick.

[galahad911]

Okay, so I point out that a 3+ reserve roll, and then a 1 in 3 hit on a scatter is not reliable, and this has somehow made me a pessimist? 

 

I'm entirely positive about Tyrants, Malanthropes/Venomthropes, and Dakkafexes. Less so on lots of other things, but that's because I've played with those other things and got my [big bad swear word] pushed in. How many times do I need to get my ass handed to me before I'm allowed to say that those other things are the problem? It's not like I'm terrible at 40K. I'm certainly not a great player, but if I get consistently housed by the average player at the GG league when I play the Endless swarm army, or the Subterranean swarm army that I play around with when I'm not wanting to run tyrants down someone's throat then there's a problem somewhere. Hell, maybe I am just a baddie and need you to teach me how to make all these other things work, since I can't seem to get it done myself.

[Guest]

Umm.You might want to do the math there.

 

Each Scatter Laser vs T6 MCs:  4 Shots. Hits 8/3. Wounds 8/6. 1 1/3 wounds per Bike.

Each Scatter Laser vs T5 MCs: 4 Shots, 8/3 Hits, 16/9 Wounds. Almost 2 wounds per bike.

Each Scatter Laser vs T4 and Under: 4 Shots, 8/3 Hits, 40/18 Wounds. More than 2 Wounds per bike.

So, with 6 bikes, looking 8 wounds per turn via a T6 target. With 2+ cover (that's a ruin or tank trap+shrouding) this becomes 1 and 1/3 unsaved wounds. FNP then reduces that to 5/6th of an unsaved wound?

 

You'd need 36 bikers to deal 5 wounds against a t6 target with FNP and 2+ cover. I don't exactly feel like I'm getting beaten if you have to dedicate that many shots into a single target just to down one MC.

 

Vs lower toughness targets, if we call that 2 wounds. Looking at 12 wounds per scatter bike. 2+ cover reduces it to 2 wounds. FNP reduces it to 1 1/3 unsaved wounds.

 

That, to me, is something you can ignore for a turn. Mind you, this is all mathhammer, in reality, I fail those 2+ saves more often than 3+ saves....

 

 

If you play start playing Nids Paxmiles your view may quickly change. However you could also be the unique masochist that loves it. But I doubt it. It starts to hurt really quick.

You totally misunderstand. Not a masochist. I enjoy the taking the harder path, certainly, but I don't do it because I enjoy pain. It's more a point of pride for me. A bit aloof, perhaps, but I like having trodden the harder path.

[Guest]

I'm entirely positive about Tyrants, Malanthropes/Venomthropes, and Dakkafexes. Less so on lots of other things, but that's because I've played with those other things and got my [big bad swear word] pushed in. How many times do I need to get my ass handed to me before I'm allowed to say that those other things are the problem? It's not like I'm terrible at 40K. I'm certainly not a great player, but if I get consistently housed by the average player at the GG league when I play the Endless swarm army, or the Subterranean swarm army that I play around with when I'm not wanting to run tyrants down someone's throat then there's a problem somewhere. Hell, maybe I am just a baddie and need you to teach me how to make all these other things work, since I can't seem to get it done myself.

Really, you see yourself as entirely positive about tyranids?

 

Maybe it's something else, but in talking to you and with your posting, it just seems like you expect things that could go wrong, to go wrong.

[galahad911]

So, with 6 bikes, looking 8 wounds per turn via a T6 target. With 2+ cover (that's a ruin or tank trap+shrouding) this becomes 1 and 1/3 unsaved wounds. FNP then reduces that to 5/6th of an unsaved wound?

 

You'd need 36 bikers to deal 5 wounds against a t6 target with FNP and 2+ cover. I don't exactly feel like I'm getting beaten if you have to dedicate that many shots into a single target just to down one MC.

 

Vs lower toughness targets, if we call that 2 wounds. Looking at 12 wounds per scatter bike. 2+ cover reduces it to 2 wounds. FNP reduces it to 1 1/3 unsaved wounds.

 

That, to me, is something you can ignore for a turn. Mind you, this is all mathhammer, in reality, I fail those 2+ saves more often than 3+ saves....

 

 

You totally misunderstand. Not a masochist. I enjoy the taking the harder path, certainly, but I don't do it because I enjoy pain. It's more a point of pride for me.

 

First, tank traps are not going to obscure 25% of any of the TMCs. Secondly, your shrouded bubbles can't be everywhere at once. People have no issues targetting the non shrouded bugs in my experience. Thirdly, those bikes get to zoom around the board scoring objectives at will, while firing their 36" range guns, while the Tyranids have to huddle in ruins with their shrouded bubble to survive and you don't see a problem with the situation?

[galahad911]

Really, you see yourself as entirely positive about tyranids?

 

Maybe it's something else, but in talking to you and with your posting, it just seems like you expect things that could go wrong, to go wrong.

 

Is that what I said? Look at what you quoted. Did I say I was positive about Tyranids? Am I hallucinating? 

[Guest]

First, tank traps are not going to obscure 25% of any of the TMCs. Secondly, your shrouded bubbles can't be everywhere at once. People have no issues targetting the non shrouded bugs in my experience. Thirdly, those bikes get to zoom around the board scoring objectives at will, while firing their 36" range guns, while the Tyranids have to huddle in ruins with their shrouded bubble to survive and you don't see a problem with the situation?

For starters, when I'm thinking of tyranid MCs, I think of carnifexen. You should be able to hide 25% of those in normal tank traps. That said, tank traps don't have a GW model and can be built any height that would reasonably be impassible for 40k vehicles. It should not be impossible to get some that can conceal 25% of SOME of the tyranid MCs (some, like the mawloc or winged tyrants, are just too tall to realistically hide).

 

You are certainly correct, non-shrouded bugs would be vulnerable. And not everything can be shrouded.

 

The bit about ignoring the bikers is strictly for turn 1. This is because it requires too many points dedicated to the bikes to deal with them turn 1 with any reliability. You can, realistically deal with them turn 2+, but the turn 1 solution is to ignore them (assuming they stay out of TLOS via the move, shoot, move approach) and use shrouded+FNP to endure it.

[WestRider]

Also, getting FNP is really unreliable with Nids. Catalyst is no longer an automatic power for anything, and even with the 6-10 rolls that good Nid lists get, there's a significant chance of not getting it. If we're still in that mode where we're not talking about Flyrants, it gets much more expensive to fit in rolls on the table, and you're probably looking at something like a 50/50 chance of getting a single instance of it.

[AbusePuppy]

Just because a person's glass is half empty from experience doesn't make it cease to be pessimism. It is the attitude that makes it pssimism, not the basis for the attitude.

 

An opinion on a single subject, especially one backed by good evidence and the views of many others with similar opinions, does not make one a pessimist.

 

The key phase you were missing in your definition is a tendency.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Pax drop the pessimist point it is accusatory and rude.

 

To highlight why it is erroneous:

 

I walk into a casino knowing I will likely lose money, am I a pessimist?

 

No as the house is statistically favored to win.

 

All options you pointed out can and have been proven unfavorable to the scatter bike. Not suggested but proven like in the scientific way.

[Bosco]

Is it awful that so many people voicing the limiting reality of the Tyranids' options are actually making me want to play 'Nids?  I don't think that is a good sign.

[Prophecy]

Well I think the bonus of playing Tyranids is the fact that you can literally play whatever you want other than a few units that can indeed be overspammed aka Lictors or Tyrants maybe Mawlocs and nobody will say anything. If they do you can tell them where they can stick their opinions. I personally hated playing against Nids when I first started  because I never had enough guns to kill them all. I think the little gribblies could be really fun as they have what is necessary to be competitive they are just priced wrong.

[indytims]

Reading all this makes me want to dust mine off...

 

Now if only pretre would sell me those gargoyles..... ;)

[pretre]

Reading all this makes me want to dust mine off...

 

Now if only pretre would sell me those gargoyles..... ;)

lol reserved for my best customer.

[Guest]

Most certainly did not mean to offend. Sorry.

 

I see myself as an optimist, which is not an insult, so it seems that a person who self identifies as a pessimist would also not be offended.

 

sorry if I missed my mark or if it is actually an insult.

[indytims]

lol reserved for my best customer.

 

Isn't there like a week-maximum hold on those things?

 

(rubs hands together eagerly)

 

I can be at your place in 10 minutes!!!  :)

[pretre]

Isn't there like a week-maximum hold on those things?

 

(rubs hands together eagerly)

 

I can be at your place in 10 minutes!!!  :)

Not for my best customer. :) I usually don't hold very long, but some people get perks. 

[WestRider]

 I think the little gribblies could be really fun as they have what is necessary to be competitive they are just priced wrong.

Honestly, this is true of pretty much all the Nid stuff. There are a few exceptions (dedicated CC Units with WS3, for example), but the big issue I find with Nids is that I always feel like I'm playing at least a couple hundred Points down unless I focus on the handful of really good Units.

[fluger]

I still like my idea of revamping Nids almost completely.

 

I'd go with higher toughnesses on most things, but no armor saves at all.  Lots of wounds and FnP though.  Would really make them unique IMO.  

 

Like, I'd have all the T6/6W/3+ armor save Nids go to 12 Wounds, and FnP and stay T6.  Tyrranofex would go to FnP 4+.  Carnifexes would have 8 wounds and 4+ FnP at T7.  Basically, the high toughness should represent their chitin, as would the FnP, having no armor would make them unique.  

 

Then again, I'd also change the cover save rules so that MCs get cover like vehicles do (so no toe in cover giving an MC/GC cover).   

 

Then all the little gribblies I'd significanly reduce in cost.  Termagants would be 3 pts, Hormagaunts 4 pts for instance.  Both would stay the same stat-wise, but they'd lose their 6+ save.  Big whoop.  

 

Also, as was stated elsewhere, the drawbacks of being out of synapse range are too severe and there's no upside for being in synapse range other than avoiding the negatives.  I get that, but what I'd do is have Synapse be at two levels 12" and 24".  24" range is just they don't have to test for IB, at 12" they get some kind of buff.  Like units with feed would gain rage, units with lurk would get stealth, and units with hunt would get preferred enemy.  Something like that.  

 

Anyway, that's some of the ideas I'd bring to the table.  

[WestRider]

That would also bring MCs in line with Vehicles regarding Cover in another way: One of the frustrations as a Nid Player is often having good Cover, and then it doesn't matter because your dudes just get hosed down with high volume, high S, high AP firepower (e.g. Scatter Lasers, Missile Pods, Autocannon, Poison more or less falls in the same category) that they're getting their Armour Save against anyhow, so the Cover doesn't matter. Vehicles, on the other hand, get to take a Cover Save against all that in addition to the protection of their AV.

[AbusePuppy]

Reading all this makes me want to dust mine off...

 

Now if only pretre would sell me those gargoyles..... ;)

 

I'm not saying I've got ~40 Gargoyles sitting around that I could be convinced to part with, but I am saying that maybe you should send me a PM and we can talk this over.