Tyranid Musings

[generalripphook]

Obviously they score theme points and uh...paint scores? Those win games right?

[Guest]

 1 And you are simultaneously refusing to acknowledge or listen to the experiences of people who do have extensive experience with Nids, while condescendingly telling us we don't understand our own Faction.

 

2 I asked this in another thread, and you never responded, but what, exactly, do you think a TAC list is? A theme is in no way contradictory with the ability to Take All Comers.

 

3 Have you even read the Nid Dex? The reason Nids always go to their Opponent is that they don't have any other options if they actually want to win the Game. Barring a couple of overpriced GMCs, they have no meaningful firepower at greater than 24" Range, and most of what's actually good is only 18". If they stay back, they're not claiming Objectives, and they're not damaging the Opponent's Army, so how are they supposed to actually win Games?

 

Let's see,

 

1) I was hoping to have players share experiences regarding tyranids and tyring other builds, but have barely seen those posted. Seems like I'm getting flat no's, rather than experiences that lead a tyranid player to conclude that no is the answer.

 

2) I've been asked a few times and I think I did answer in one of them. Anyway, TAC and all-comer's lists [the terms] seem to be used differently, in my experience. A TAC list often refers to a tourny list that is overly specialized into exploiting one or two points of unbalance within the current codex or edition (or rather, it uses the "good" units and rules...). An all-comer's list is one that's built to be balanced in a manner where each opponent has the same odds to win. They are also called jack of all trades master of none lists, or swiss army knife lists. 

 

3)

That would be another one of those tyranid playstyles that is rather repetitive amounst the tyranid players. Bugs come to you, every time. I'd love to see a change in the tyranid list on that front, but I'm really not sure how you'd get armies like AM or TAU to come to bugs...

At no point was I saying that tyranids should sit back and shoot. I completely agree with you, though I don't understand how you read it to make it seem like I disagreed.

 

As I said, I'd love to see tyranids able to do this, but I don't know how to make it work.

 

This was in his response regarding using tank traps in yet another way I didn't intend, but he seemed to think I said.

 

Read the posts....

[Guest]

Obviously they score theme points and uh...paint scores? Those win games right?

Not exactly the sort of theme I was thinking, though you are correct, some events actually add a good number of points from painting and such to the final score, so it could matter. GG league was doing this for a while, though I'm not certain Captain A has continued it.

[WestRider]

The reason you're getting flat nos is that you're late to the party. We've all been through this in detail before, and rehashing it again is kind of depressing. We've all seen enough Stealers and Hormies get stomped by cheaper generalists hiding in Cover, and so forth.

 

A Take All Comers list literally means that it can (at least theoretically, barring poor dice rolls, bad play, etc.) take on any other list and win. It does not mean that all other lists have equal odds of beating it. I've never run across anyone else who even implied that. TAC is just the acronym for Take All Comers. There is no difference between the terms.

 

On the last one, I was just pointing out that it's a repetitive playstyle specifically because that's how GW has designed the Dex. It doesn't function in any other way, and the fluff doesn't encourage any other approach, so there's really no reason to poke at that angle, functional or otherwise.

[Guest]

The reason you're getting flat nos is that you're late to the party. We've all been through this in detail before, and rehashing it again is kind of depressing. We've all seen enough Stealers and Hormies get stomped by cheaper generalists hiding in Cover, and so forth.

I will say that the tyranid codex is really overpriced, both for 7th and for an army that has to come to the enemy every time. I don't think GW takes the additional turn or 2 of shooting that most armies use against tyranids into account when deciding on the tyranid point values. Makes me wonder if we could trick the marines or AM into coming to us in a game or two....

 

The ITC LoW selection really doesn't help either - in general, most of the ITC format restrictions which are balanced for most armies, are really crippling for tyranids due to how GW has been making the dataslates and detachment options for tyranids.

 

Anyway, I do think that if you respond with flat no's, it is very unreasonable to expect that someone will hear the experience of your response.

[WestRider]

Another aspect is that there are many things that legitimately can be compared just by looking at them. Old One Eye, for example. All Nid Players have seen Tärvigons evaporate first Turn plenty of times. It's pretty much a given that a decent Army at Tournament Points levels can take one off on Turn one if it wants to. As far as being shot at is concerned, OOE is 2/3 of a Tärv. None of his other Rules make any difference when it comes to getting pelted with missiles or scatter lasers or whatever. Therefore, all the CC Rules that he's shelling out all those extra Points for over a regular Fex will never come into play, because barring absolutely horrible luck, to the point where it literally doesn't matter what the Nid player is running, no competent player with a decent list will ever let him live to make it into Combat. I don't have to try that out. I know how fast 4 T6 3+Sv Wounds go down from using other Units with more or less the same Statline.

 

Much of the Nid Army falls into this category. The MCs almost all have that same basic T6 3+Sv Statline, and we know how far that goes. Not far enough to justify those prices. The T4 Multi-Wounders are similar*. We've tried a few of them for a while, seen how they evaporate to the firepower that we regularly face, and write the rest off, because they don't have anything going for them that's going to change that fate. Sky-Slashers are just Rippers, but without the possibility of getting Objective Secured. Pyrovores are actually really good at what they do now that they've got a Deep Strike option again, but it's not something the Tyranid Army really needs, and what need we do have for Templates is filled by T-Fexen, Crones, and Flyrants with eGrubs, all of which can do many other things besides handle light-medium Infantry in Cover, while that's the only thing Pyrovores do well. And so forth.

 

*Lictors are an exception in many ways because of their Deployment options, inherent Stealth, and the way they can be spammed as singles.

[pretre]

Pax, I get that you're trying to engender discussion about other options for Nids. Perhaps the way you are going about it is not the best, however.

[Hobbitron]

Here is another way of approaching this conversation. Let's take some units, and discuss what options Tyranids have to respond to those. One catch, Flyrants don't count. They're an answer for pretty much everything and it's too easy. Try again. Pick and choose what you want to respond to, or feel free to add other things to respond to. Choose things that you are fairly likely to see in any given game. Be generic or specific as your see fit. I may even update this post with responses so people can see them....

 

1. Scatbikes. Unit size of 6.
2. WraithKnight.
3. DreadKnight.
4. Transport (rhino or DE type, your choice) with ObSec dudes inside.
5. Terminators
6. Necron Wraiths

 

My responses:

1. Due to a very real lack of AP3 in the dex, I'm going to go with a large unit of Zoanthropes in a pod to use Warp Blast. Tyrannofex may also not be bad in a pod since they can weather their shooting better than any other unit in the dex. The reality of the situation is that competing with 12" move and 36" range on their gun isn't feasible in a vacuum with the Tyranid codex. Nothing has the speed or range to catch up and do something meaningful.
2. Psychic Shriek... or the nid version anyway.
3. See #2, though since it's not a GMC, you can also try units with bone swords.
4. The problems that this generic type of unit presents, is that very few things can shoot a transport and destroy it, and then also be good enough in CC to assault the contents. The closest things are Dakkafexen. But, they have impaired CC capability. It usually requires the use of two units to tackle. One that can pop the hull, and a second to deal with the contents. So, there are a varying number of responses.
5. Devourer equipped Termagants in a Tyrannocite. 20 of them comes to 60 shots. They're bound to roll 1s sometime. Also Mawlocs.
6. Stuff and things. They beat pretty much everything in the nid dex in combat, so S6+ shooting.

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

Your comments pax assume the discussion you are trying to achieve is new and unique. it is not.

 

Every nid player wants to play mass genestealers. Everyone of them wants to play with their other cool toys. Genestealers are some of the coolest models and fluff. I mean their Ridley Scott's aliens! But you don't see them because people don't try them. You don't see them, because people have and they suck. They suck so Bad, I mean God awful. I have played a from the shadow themed list and it was quick and painful for me.

 

Nids don't have a lot of unorthodox options. I am sure there are some hidden gems not left to uncover but your approach does not foster that kind of inquiry. Evaluate your approach and understand you are an outsider looking in (since you don't play nids).

[Hobbitron]

For the record on Genestealers: My first 40k OFCC I brought 50 of them. It was 5th edition. I won 3 of my 5 games, and the two I didn't win, one was a draw only because of odd scoring and a Land Raider with one hull point, the other was mostly bad luck and a bit of being out played (first time playing against BT). I loved that list. So, SO much. Genestealers weren't great at that point. I brought them into 6th, and immediately regretted it. The introduction of overwatch and removing models from the front makes T4 5+ save models wither to bolter fire from overwatch. One or two models can be devastating due to charge ranges. A lack of any shooting means that in 7th Genestealers are really for two things: Assaulting, and ObSec. When it comes to assaulting, if you can get them into combat undamaged, and without clipping terrain, then they are worth every point against nearly any type of enemy. The chances of getting them into combat unwounded and without clipping terrain against a competent opponent? I'd rather put money on the Broncos to win Super Bowl 48.

 

Which means they are mostly useful for ObSec. And even that they aren't great at. Why? T4 5+ save means that the will die quickly when being targeted. You can hide them in cover, but there is plenty of ignores cover out there, and even a 4+ or 5+ cover isn't terribly impressive. You also can only go to ground if no synapse is around for that extra boost. The 70 points minimum for a unit of genestealers is quickly outstripped for this purpose by 17 termagants. Comes in at 2 points cheaper, and 12 more wounds, and at least they can shoot something that comes within 12".

 

You may be able to find other ways to make Genestealers into a mediocre unit (I'd love to hear how!), but they'll never be able to keep pace with other choices from the codex, even in the troops slot. Even the formations aren't very good for genestealers. Extra cover saves are good, but they have to leave the cover to assault, or risk being at I1, so they don't even get that cover save against overwatch. And if they're just sitting in the ruins camping an objective, then they aren't contributing any shooting.

[fluger]

The only thing I can think of is using something else to assault first to absorb the overwatch.  But that's problematic for other reasons.  

[generalripphook]

Personally I feel like the Tyranid Codex doesn't give enough bonuses for being in synapse range. None of the rules really encourage them to need it. Just penalizes you for being outside of synapse. It takes away from the way I feel tyranids should play, big monsters with tons of swarms, not just big monsters. 

[fluger]

Yeah, the horde aspect of Nids has been downplayed rules-wise since 4th edition IMO.  TMCs have been some of the best buys for a while now.  The only horde unit that made sense was the 5th ed gargoyle, but, in real life, they were too impossible to use since they got in each other's way too easily and therefore sucked to use.  

Hormagaunts should be 4 pts each as currently constructed.  

[Guest Mr. Bigglesworth]

5th genestealers were usable. I played with 3 min sets and did fine.

[huggies01]

Guys. Obviously One Eye sucks. Maybe the worst unit in the Codex. I was joking to lighten the inevitable onslaught (like what I did there?) of argument that would soon follow. It obviously landed about as well as Harrison Ford on a PGA Tour.

 

With that said, I think there is an overall Nid consensus that the Army doesn't pack the same punch as other (alledgely) GW Fanboy armies. However it always seems that when you leave the Nid community there are these weird Non-Nid playing Generals who believe that the Codex itself if OP Broken. I always hear arguments starting with, "Well this Nid Player I knew did this." I am not sure where this Unicorn/Bigfoot breed of players are as I have yet to see any of these players.
 

Personally I have been playing only Nids for years now and I have gotten pretty schnazzy with them, but there are just a few armies that I have been able to build a TAC(take all comers) list with:

Orks

Necrons (but maybe changing as of late)

and Nids

 

Nids are much like using a box of surgical tools to change a tire. Sure the scalpel can take the rubber off but that's about as far as you go.

 

With every other army using vehicles this is the number one issue they have to overcome. How do you blow the vehicle up ASAP.

The second issue and piggybacking off the first, is they have to last at least 2 rounds of shooting to get through before they do damage.

 

Using this logic and not being able to refute (because I said so) leaves a nid player with one solid option. Deep Strike. Because the Pods came back the Nids have a fighting chance. Are they overcosted? Yup. Are MC's overcosted? Yup. With this deepstriking method, will you lose the Tactical Objective game? Yup (probably), But the good news is when you're at the bottom there is no where to go but up.

 

The secret I have learned is to deepstrike with a vendetta (no not the AM flier) and  it doesn't really matter which units Deepstrike so long as then can do enough damage upon entry to weaken the enemy fire power. The more you can do that turn then every turn thereafter increases your survivability exponentially.

 

There are however armies that when it comes to winning in this method are still about as hard as my grandpa in a Viagra factory.

Eldar

Tau

Dark Eldar

Guard (sometimes)

 

Just some food for thought or 2 cents or whatever.

[Guest]

 

Here is another way of approaching this conversation. Let's take some units, and discuss what options Tyranids have to respond to those. One catch, Flyrants don't count. They're an answer for pretty much everything and it's too easy. Try again. Pick and choose what you want to respond to, or feel free to add other things to respond to. Choose things that you are fairly likely to see in any given game. Be generic or specific as your see fit. I may even update this post with responses so people can see them....

 

1. Scatbikes. Unit size of 6.
2. WraithKnight.
3. DreadKnight.
4. Transport (rhino or DE type, your choice) with ObSec dudes inside.
5. Terminators
6. Necron Wraiths

 

My responses:

1. Due to a very real lack of AP3 in the dex, I'm going to go with a large unit of Zoanthropes in a pod to use Warp Blast. Tyrannofex may also not be bad in a pod since they can weather their shooting better than any other unit in the dex. The reality of the situation is that competing with 12" move and 36" range on their gun isn't feasible in a vacuum with the Tyranid codex. Nothing has the speed or range to catch up and do something meaningful.
2. Psychic Shriek... or the nid version anyway.
3. See #2, though since it's not a GMC, you can also try units with bone swords.
4. The problems that this generic type of unit presents, is that very few things can shoot a transport and destroy it, and then also be good enough in CC to assault the contents. The closest things are Dakkafexen. But, they have impaired CC capability. It usually requires the use of two units to tackle. One that can pop the hull, and a second to deal with the contents. So, there are a varying number of responses.
5. Devourer equipped Termagants in a Tyrannocite. 20 of them comes to 60 shots. They're bound to roll 1s sometime. Also Mawlocs.
6. Stuff and things. They beat pretty much everything in the nid dex in combat, so S6+ shooting.

 

Love the direction you are taking this thread.

 

1. Scatter bikers are a tough one because they'll likely be shooting, then hiding out of LOS in the same turn. This really limits options for dealing with them. As for psychic shrek, the downside is that they'd still get jink, plus they'd get a deny roll, so I don't think it's really going to be that effective.

 

A Mucolid Spore Cluster could deep strike onto their position. S8 ap3 large blasts for 45pts (3-man). That would probably be the most point efficient way to disperse the scatter bike unit. That is a turn 2+ solution, though.

 

Beyond that, you've got biovores lonely on the list of tyranid indirect options. They could still work and are a potential turn 1 solution.

 

Although totally overkill, the ITC legal Scythed Hierodule has a hellstorm attack at S6 ap3 that would completely decimate the scatterbikers. It would not be difficult to use this turn 1, though again, totally overkill.

 

If they are using ruins to hide behind, there are two dataslates in rising leviathan 1 to allow genestealers to infiltrate within 6". Again, a turn 2 solution.

 

Along the turn 2 solutions, any number of deep striking tyranid units would work.

 

That Mawloc, in particular, is S6 ap2 ignores cover when he arrives.

 

2. Really depends if the Wraith knight comes to you, or, if he sits back and shoots.

 

If they come to you, you really just need any thing with initiative 6 or higher and a realistic ability to wound in melee while denying armor. Rending is by far the most viable option here, as it doesn't reqire adjusting your list. Genestealers or lictors should be able to defeat a wraithknight in melee with enough swings (rending auto-wounds on 6s with ap2). Beyond that, a Hive Tyrant with the Reaper of Obliterax, a Diamchaeron, Or a brood of stone crusher carnifexen (only if they can get the charge).

 

If they sit back, lots of the same issues as with the bikers. Those Mucolid Spore Clusters still aren't a half bad solution. Beyond that, you've got the Exocrine and the Barbed Hierodule. Best bet is to try to distract it and hope you can reach it with units that can kill it in assault.

 

3. Dreadknight. Not exactly the most durable unit against tyranids. Ideally you'd want to swing first, so Initiative 5+ units. Rending or toxin sacs for infantry units. He is an infantry muncher with AoE weapons, so I'd spread out my infantry units. He'll also die pretty quick to a couple of Exocrines or to mass bio-plasma. You could also attempt to tie him up with zoans. He is a psyker, so there is some potential using a Maleceptor to kill him off if you can get him into shadows range.

 

4. Lighter transports are best dealt with via the Hive Guard. The ignores cover version is ideal for skimmer transports and the haywire is better for tanks. Hive guard in a pod with the haywire are still one of the better land raider solutions for tyranids, at least at range. The mawloc is also a pretty viable option for light transports.

 

In alternative, you could try to assault the transport with a unit large enough where the enemy unit is destroyed when it tries to disembark the wrecked transport. This is a very viable tyranid tactic and a really irritating one of for expensive units in transports.

 

Again, those Mucolid Spores are a pretty solid solution for light transports.

 

5. Terminators, and I assume you mean TH/SS ones. Mine die every time to mass infantry, either melee or ranged shooting. Key point with terminators is that they are selected to deal with your MCs and are really wasted against non-MC opponents in the tyranid army. Tie them up with infantry and whittle them down with easily less points. Gaunts, are the best solution to terminators. We'll, grots are best solution, but gaunts are a close second. Beyond that, the bio plasma or Exocrine or stonecrusher carnifexen (if they have the charge) are pretty viable options.

 

6. Wraiths. They are easily solved via the same thing as the terminators: They die to mass infantry, just weak mass infantry with lots of little plinky attacks. Toxin sacs aren't a terrible idea here.

 

7. Mind you, with the above, you start adding ICs, or psychic powers, or other buffs, and nothing is easy deal with for any army.

[galahad911]

 

Here is another way of approaching this conversation. Let's take some units, and discuss what options Tyranids have to respond to those. One catch, Flyrants don't count. They're an answer for pretty much everything and it's too easy. Try again. Pick and choose what you want to respond to, or feel free to add other things to respond to. Choose things that you are fairly likely to see in any given game. Be generic or specific as your see fit. I may even update this post with responses so people can see them....

 

1. Scatbikes. Unit size of 6.
2. WraithKnight.
3. DreadKnight.
4. Transport (rhino or DE type, your choice) with ObSec dudes inside.
5. Terminators
6. Necron Wraiths

 

My responses:

1. Due to a very real lack of AP3 in the dex, I'm going to go with a large unit of Zoanthropes in a pod to use Warp Blast. Tyrannofex may also not be bad in a pod since they can weather their shooting better than any other unit in the dex. The reality of the situation is that competing with 12" move and 36" range on their gun isn't feasible in a vacuum with the Tyranid codex. Nothing has the speed or range to catch up and do something meaningful.
2. Psychic Shriek... or the nid version anyway.
3. See #2, though since it's not a GMC, you can also try units with bone swords.
4. The problems that this generic type of unit presents, is that very few things can shoot a transport and destroy it, and then also be good enough in CC to assault the contents. The closest things are Dakkafexen. But, they have impaired CC capability. It usually requires the use of two units to tackle. One that can pop the hull, and a second to deal with the contents. So, there are a varying number of responses.
5. Devourer equipped Termagants in a Tyrannocite. 20 of them comes to 60 shots. They're bound to roll 1s sometime. Also Mawlocs.
6. Stuff and things. They beat pretty much everything in the nid dex in combat, so S6+ shooting.

 

 

 

1. Dakkafexen in pods. Hive Crones. LAN biovores maybe?

 

2. There is no real way to kill a Wraithknight without ridiculous levels of tailoring. Ignore and play the mission?

 

3. Dreadknights just get dragged down by poison troops ideally. Dakkafexen here too.

 

4. Hive Guards. Lictors flesh hooks in rear armor. Dakkafexen devourer down the transport and, if close enough, assault the contents?

 

5. Terminators you just pile wounds on. Don't bother messing with AP. Just make them roll lots of saves.

 

6. Same as #5 here.

 

 

As an aside, mucolids don't explode if you deep strike them on things, they just mishap. 

[Guest]

As an aside, mucolids don't explode if you deep strike them on things, they just mishap. 

Seriously? Wow, overlooked that huge nerf to spore mines. What was GW thinking? So I deep strike the spores in turn 2+, then have those super fragile spores sit around a turn, and do something turn 3+....?

 

Though that said, as far as I can tell, both the normal spores and the mucolid spores can be further transported in the tyranid spore pods. Probably not worth it for points, but it is an interesting option and would allow a bit more accuracy.

 

The other funny one is that you could have them manning a building...Given that you can assault out of a building, the spore mines aren't a horrible unit to have embarked, especially given that tyranids can't apply their BS to the shooting anyway.

[Guest]

I'll admit, this thread has me wanting to start bugs. Though since I'm a rather slow army builder, I'll probably have an entirely different tyranid codex to work with, making any attempts to disprove claims of tyranid failings rather obsolete.

 

Could be just me, but I like uphill battles....

[fluger]

I appreciate that motivation.  It's why I started Terran when I got into Starcraft because everyone told me they were the worst in Brood War.  I like to take [big bad swear word] and make it shine. 

[WestRider]

 

 

1. Scatter bikers are a tough one because they'll likely be shooting, then hiding out of LOS in the same turn. This really limits options for dealing with them. As for psychic shrek, the downside is that they'd still get jink, plus they'd get a deny roll, so I don't think it's really going to be that effective.

Psychic Scream does actually ignore Cover. On the other hand, 'Psychic Shrek' is my favorite typo since 'Girffons' :D

[pretre]

'DONKEY!' screamed the hive tyrant and the Eldar collapsed, blood streaming from ther faces.

[Guest]

Psychic Scream does actually ignore Cover. On the other hand, 'Psychic Shrek' is my favorite typo since 'Girffons' :D

Lol...did a google search, and indeed, there is a psychic shrek:

[Guest]

More seriously, yeah, totally screwed that one up.

 

Psychic Scream does actually ignore Cover.

Do eldar have psychic hood access this edition, or would they need an acutal psyker in the unit in order to have a decent deny roll?

 

Anyway, was actually thinking of LOS, not jink. Main issue would be if the target is hiding outside LOS, then a secondary issue being the deny roll (as well as the tyranid abysmal BS for their psychic shooting attacks). With the eldar move, shoot, move, it's a real concern for the viability of any ability which requires you to see the target.

[WestRider]

Psychic Scream is a Nova, so it gets around the BS issue, and I think LoS as well, tho I don't recall for sure. I know Novas ignore most of the usual targeting restrictions; they can hit Units that are Locked in Combat and such.