Guest Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Umm. You were serious? Okay then. You have a very different perspective on the world. I guess. I'm just seeing an expensive glass cannon with no versatility in function. Maybe 1 turn of firing, and yeah, its target will probably die, but even there, if the turn order is reversed, it will probably never fire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 I guess. I'm just seeing an expensive glass cannon with no versatility in function. Maybe 1 turn of firing, and yeah, it's target will probably die, but even there, if the turn order is reversed, it will probably never fire. Yes, because the eldar has nothing else on the board. :( Also, no versatility? Erasing units from the board isn't versatile? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Yes, because the eldar has nothing else on the board. :( Also, no versatility? Erasing units from the board isn't versatile? No versatility means it can only do the one thing the one way. Even if it's amazing at the one thing, I dislike units that can only be one thing. I'm a space marine player, I suppose. Basically, if an opponent voluntarily comes into range and can be hit with a blast weapon, it can attempt to hit them - that's all it can really do. Even the vindicare assassin, can outflank and pistol people instead of always being that dedicated long range assassin. The artillery battery is just stuck there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Umm. Sure. I guess if your opponent sits in their deployment zone over 24" away from you for the whole game, you don't infiltrate it somewhere nice and such than it is a sucky weapon. I don't know that I've ever seen a game where my opponent stayed more than 24" from me the whole game though. Also, outflanking a vindicare to pistol them? Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 3 D small blasts that have only 24" of range, can't move and fire, can't charge, can't fire while snapping, have extremely limited leadership, and auto-fails sweeps, for 250pts? Does it really need more nerfing? In the 250 pt range that also includes the farseer, so it has Ld10. It doesn't need to move and fire because it's creating a zone that no one wants to enter. When that's midline on the edge of my deployment, that covers the vast bulk of no-man's land. Guess where most objectives are placed... It doesn't need to charge, because I have other stuff in my army. What it DOES do is be REALLY hard to kill with shooting. T7 with 3+ armor and some cover is pretty tough to dislodge, certainly not impossible, but tough none-the-less. Being able to be out of LoS obviously increases it's survivability and having access to either prescience or guide (or both!) means that it doesn't miss that often. Doesn't need to snap fire either, because, typically, it never got charged (and again, this was when it was just S10!) If you use the un-nerfed D table, there is almost nothing that wants to get in range of these things, and that basically allows me to do what I want elsewhere on the board. It's area denial at it's finest. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Umm. Sure. I guess if your opponent sits in their deployment zone over 24" away from you for the whole game, you don't infiltrate it somewhere nice and such than it is a sucky weapon. I don't know that I've ever seen a game where my opponent stayed more than 24" from me the whole game though. Also, outflanking a vindicare to pistol them? Really? Not 24" from you, 24" from the gun. And even there, only if we can't deal with it otherwise. Sounds like a sucky list that has no versatility if the artillery within 24" are really denying the area that well. If you use the un-nerfed D table, there is almost nothing that wants to get in range of these things, and that basically allows me to do what I want elsewhere on the board. It's area denial at it's finest. Is this a Coward variant of 40k? My lists are by far less gutsy than Chappy's Templars, and even I'd have a units jumping into melee with this thing by turn 2 if I didn't have the means to dispose of it at long range or short range pods/bikes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 In the 250 pt range that also includes the farseer, so it has Ld10. Yeah, realized it late and didn't change it. Would be a bit harder to pin them or make them flee, but not stubborn or fearless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 You have to survive to melee on Turn 2. If you enter the middle ground in preparation for melee, you won't survive it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 You have to survive to melee on Turn 2. If you enter the middle ground in preparation for melee, you won't survive it. A few things gave the unit issues, deep striking sternguard being the biggest since they can shoot a ton of 2+ wounding shots and I can't kill them before they get up close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 A few things gave the unit issues, deep striking sternguard being the biggest since they can shoot a ton of 2+ wounding shots and I can't kill them before they get up close. Sure, sure. There are ways to get around it, but they are only a tiny part of the army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Sure, sure. There are ways to get around it, but they are only a tiny part of the army. Yup. It's an incredibly solid unit, it can also act as a trap of some sort. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Is this a Coward variant of 40k? My lists are by far less gutsy than Chappy's Templars, and even I'd have a units jumping into melee with this thing by turn 2 if I didn't have the means to dispose of it at long range or short range pods/bikes. I'll just say that in all the games I played with this (and, again it was the weaker older version), it was only assaulted once. And that was by an outflanking unit of shining spears that got pretty lucky for a variety of reasons (and also I was dumb for deploying by the edge). I still ended up winning the fight thanks to my farseer giving everyone 4++ and fortune, but, still. Let's just play this out. Here's the 2k list I've concocted for the new dex. http://www.ordofanaticus.com/index.php?/topic/24737-2k-eldar-list/?p=296965 It's in its most nascent form, and isn't even REMOTELY optimized, but I really am curious what you think is making a turn 2 assault on this stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 It's in its most nascent form, and isn't even REMOTELY optimized, but I really am curious what you think is making a turn 2 assault on this stuff. Ooh, ooh, that BA formation thingy that gives charge from deep strike. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Isn't there a scouting/infiltrating flesh hound list somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 They'd have a rough go of it too since those Dire Avengers can dish out SOOOO much shooting. I'd also look at tying them up in combat with war walkers. Oh, and striking scorps could do well too. I was talking about a list that Pax plans on using though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 They'd have a rough go of it too since those Dire Avengers can dish out SOOOO much shooting. I'd also look at tying them up in combat with war walkers. Oh, and striking scorps could do well too. I was talking about a list that Pax plans on using though. Yeah, I was just trying to come up with a way of assaulting them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 I mean, khornedog overload and a bunch of maulerfiends could probably do it. Then again, if I was facing such a list, I *probably* wouldn't deploy on the edge of deployment... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 I mean, khornedog overload and a bunch of maulerfiends could probably do it. Then again, if I was facing such a list, I *probably* wouldn't deploy on the edge of deployment... That is a good point. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 I'll just say that in all the games I played with this (and, again it was the weaker older version), it was only assaulted once. And that was by an outflanking unit of shining spears that got pretty lucky for a variety of reasons (and also I was dumb for deploying by the edge). I still ended up winning the fight thanks to my farseer giving everyone 4++ and fortune, but, still. Let's just play this out. Here's the 2k list I've concocted for the new dex. http://www.ordofanaticus.com/index.php?/topic/24737-2k-eldar-list/?p=296965 It's in its most nascent form, and isn't even REMOTELY optimized, but I really am curious what you think is making a turn 2 assault on this stuff. I mean, khornedog overload and a bunch of maulerfiends could probably do it. Then again, if I was facing such a list, I *probably* wouldn't deploy on the edge of deployment... So what's the point? I mean if I design a list that can engage you in assault early on, you won't deploy so close. My point wasn't that I'd plan to engage you turn 2 in assault, my plan would be to destroy you turn 1 at range, but if that fails, then follow up with assault on turn 2. Mind you, although the goal is to destroy, merely disabling your unit for a turn would be just as practical. I can disable via pinning, locking in assault, or otherwise forcing snapfire. Anyway, your unit is 285pts with your farseer and that unit of 3 D guns. 285pts of anyone's army should be more than enough to destroy that unit over 2 turns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pretre Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 When it's out of Los? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 Also, outflanking a vindicare to pistol them? Really? Yeah, it's pretty effective. He's got all the special ammo on the pistol now, so he can outflank and pistol tanks to death with his S10 ap2 ignores cover pistol. Mind you, he arrives turn 2+, but it means he isn't first blood against some opponents (like TAU...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 When it's out of Los? You mean the battery? It's 285pts. I have 285pts to deal with it. I can buy a lot with that. Anyone can buy a lot with that. And if he's out of LOS, then the artillery is unable to subtract BS from shooting scatter and his psyker is greatly impaired when using a blessing/malediction on anything except that unit. And even this relies on actually having LOS blocking terrain that just happens to be right on the edge of his deployment zone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 I don't know how you look at Terminators and see value, but look at a D cannon battery and see little value. We'll just have to agree to disagree. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 I don't know how you look at Terminators and see value, but look at a D cannon battery and see little value. We'll just have to agree to disagree. Does no one read my posts? I don't like the tactical terminator UNIT, but I do think they are worth their points on an individual MODEL basis. I think 40pts for single wound model with 2+/5++, deep strike, a power fist and storm bolter is a fair price. As for the D cannon, I do see value in it. I've said how I see it as threatening. What I don't see, is how it needs nerfing - that is what I've been addressing. I think that unit is plenty balanced as is. As for your list and your comment about it being this ultimate zone control unit, I'm not seeing it. At 285pts, it doesn't strike me as much more durable than a squadron of basilisks. Yeah, threatening, but it can't hold it's own if threatened back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted May 15, 2015 Report Share Posted May 15, 2015 If you think a S9 AP3 Large blast is equivalent in scariness to un-nerfed D strength small blast, then I don't know what to tell you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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