Lyraeus Posted December 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 35 minutes ago, paxmiles said: Are the grots themselves particularly durable in this edition? Seems like those would get killed first, then the orks behind them. Or you'd just ignore the unit targeted with the rest of your shooting, and instead focus on another target. I don't mind you focusing on another target if it leaves my potential 75 attacks guaranteed to hit on 5+ and generates extra hits on a 5+ that I get to do twice. Especially since thet are S7 AP-1 Dmg 2. By all means, ignore them ^_^ Well in this list its 15-45 attacks but yea. How many Drones do you think that would kill? Honestly I shouldn't be giving away my tricks to the enemy but it's all for fun and the better you are the better challenge I get (not an ego thing, I just like a challenge. One sided games bore me) The reason you want to still kill the lootas if it's an option (not likely to get messed up by something else for instance) and not attacking the grots is because i not only can fail the 2+ shield, but it uses up a CP. Getting rid of my CP means I have less tricks... Like bringing back that squad of boyz you nearly killed... And now reappeared on your back table edge at full strength... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 26, 2018 Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Lyraeus said: As @WestRider stated, on a 2+ the grots take a Mortal wound per hit. This lasts your entire shooting phase For clarity, it let's you ignore the Wound/damage to the initial unit, not the hit? It doesn't allow you to take mortal wounds on grots instead of taking markerlight hits, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 26, 2018 Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 12 minutes ago, Lyraeus said: Grots are T2 WS 5+ S2 I believe... So... Likely grots lose BADLY But like 3pts each, right? Firewarriors are also WS 5+, but have S3, T3 and 4+ armor. 1 attack per model. 7pts each. So 1 on 1, we'd win, but 3 to 1 would probably be victory for the grots... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyraeus Posted December 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, paxmiles said: For clarity, it let's you ignore the Wound/damage to the initial unit, not the hit? It doesn't allow you to take mortal wounds on grots instead of taking markerlight hits, right? So the sequence of events is as follows. You declare target. You roll to hit If the unit is hit I Declare Grot Shields You roll to wound initial target For each successful wound, I roll a 2+ Each successful 2+ does a MW to a Grot (ie, remove a Grot, do not pass go, no 200 teef) On a failure of a 2+ I roll save if any Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyraeus Posted December 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 6 minutes ago, paxmiles said: But like 3pts each, right? Firewarriors are also WS 5+, but have S3, T3 and 4+ armor. 1 attack per model. 7pts each. So 1 on 1, we'd win, but 3 to 1 would probably be victory for the grots... Yea... WS 5+, S2, T2, LD 4 SV6+ 3pts a pop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 26, 2018 Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 3 minutes ago, Lyraeus said: So the sequence of events is as follows. You declare target. You roll to hit If the unit is hit I Declare Grot Shields You roll to wound initial target For each successful wound, I roll a 2+ Each successful 2+ does a MW to a Grot (ie, remove a Grot, do not pass go, no 200 teef) On a failure of a 2+ I roll save if any So how does it work with markerlights? Markerlights only roll to hit. Sounds like the ability offers no protection, as it doesn't ignore hits, just wounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyraeus Posted December 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 1 minute ago, paxmiles said: So how does it work with markerlights? Markerlights only roll to hit. Sounds like the ability offers no protection, as it doesn't ignore hits, just wounds. I could still use the strat and it lasts for the phase but if you waste a marker light on a target, and some how use that as my "oh no pop the strat" moment (would be silly to do so) then I can't use it elsewhere. Grots also have to be between the shooter and the one being shot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 26, 2018 Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 1 minute ago, Lyraeus said: I could still use the strat and it lasts for the phase but if you waste a marker light on a target, and some how use that as my "oh no pop the strat" moment (would be silly to do so) then I can't use it elsewhere. Grots also have to be between the shooter and the one being shot. Nah, wasn't thinking about tricking you. Just thinking that if I can get 5x markers on the lootas, even if you pass the wounds, the markers would bolster my shooting enough lay waste to the lootas and the grots. But if you were able to distribute the markers to other units, it would make it impractical to do this and I'm better off killing the grots first. 5x markers adds +1 to hit, ignores cover, and penalties for heavy/assault weapons are ignored (vs the 5x marker target). Makes a substancial difference in the viability of using volume fire to kill the lootas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyraeus Posted December 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 5 minutes ago, paxmiles said: Nah, wasn't thinking about tricking you. Just thinking that if I can get 5x markers on the lootas, even if you pass the wounds, the markers would bolster my shooting enough lay waste to the lootas and the grots. But if you were able to distribute the markers to other units, it would make it impractical to do this and I'm better off killing the grots first. 5x markers adds +1 to hit, ignores cover, and penalties for heavy/assault weapons are ignored (vs the 5x marker target). Makes a substancial difference in the viability of using volume fire to kill the lootas. You don't roll to wound with markers though. So I can't pass them. If I did pass them, yoy realize that Marker Lights would suddenly be doing Mortal Wounds... So a Marker Light could kill a Grot if I could pass them with the Shields. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 26, 2018 Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 8 minutes ago, Lyraeus said: If I did pass them, yoy realize that Marker Lights would suddenly be doing Mortal Wounds... So a Marker Light could kill a Grot if I could pass them with the Shields. If it let you, burning grots for marker protection is easily worth it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyraeus Posted December 26, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 6 hours ago, paxmiles said: If it let you, burning grots for marker protection is easily worth it... No doubt. Having a TAU force myself, I understand that easily enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted December 26, 2018 Report Share Posted December 26, 2018 11 hours ago, paxmiles said: Minefields thing is a reference to their rules in 3rd. Maybe I should have added a winking smilely face. I was pretty sure the minefields bit was gone in the current codex. Yeah, I remember that. Pretty sure they haven't had anything like that since. They could also be used to let an Ork Unit re-roll Difficult Terrain or something like that, as I recall. 11 hours ago, paxmiles said: Are the grots themselves particularly durable in this edition? Seems like those would get killed first, then the orks behind them. Or you'd just ignore the unit targeted with the rest of your shooting, and instead focus on another target. First, Grot durability is a function of cheapness. Their individual profile is possibly the worst in the game, but at 3 Points each, you can easily have enough out there that very few Armies are going to be able to kill them all off quickly enough for it to be a better option than trying for the Lootaz with enough volume of fire to force some 1s. Second, and perhaps more importantly, the Stratagem doesn't require the Grots to be visible to the firing Unit, just closer than the target. So you can hide them from getting shot first. Third, a big Mob of Lootaz is really not an ignorable Unit. If you leave them alone, they will wreck stuff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted December 28, 2018 Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 Whole lotta dakka and a decent (for Marines) number of bodies on the field for 500 Points. Really lacking in mobility, but since Primaris Marines aren’t allowed to use Rhinos, whatcha gunna do? 🤷♂️ Biggest hurdle, I think, will be the lack of CP. No fancy Stratagems for this list! ++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [27 PL, 499pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Imperial Fists + HQ + Captain [6 PL, 124pts]: Champion of Humanity, Jump Pack, Storm shield, Thunder hammer, Warlord + Troops + Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 179pts]: 2x Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle . 9x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Power fist Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Stalker Bolt Rifle . 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword + Elites + Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher ++ Total: [27 PL, 499pts] ++ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyraeus Posted December 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 8 hours ago, Ish said: Whole lotta dakka and a decent (for Marines) number of bodies on the field for 500 Points. Really lacking in mobility, but since Primaris Marines aren’t allowed to use Rhinos, whatcha gunna do? 🤷♂️ Biggest hurdle, I think, will be the lack of CP. No fancy Stratagems for this list! ++ Patrol Detachment (Imperium - Space Marines) [27 PL, 499pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Imperial Fists + HQ + Captain [6 PL, 124pts]: Champion of Humanity, Jump Pack, Storm shield, Thunder hammer, Warlord + Troops + Intercessor Squad [10 PL, 179pts]: 2x Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle . 9x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Power fist Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 85pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Stalker Bolt Rifle . 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Chainsword + Elites + Aggressor Squad [6 PL, 111pts]: 2x Aggressor, Aggressor Sergeant, Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets/Fragstorm Grenade Launcher ++ Total: [27 PL, 499pts] ++ Ohhhh that's a punishing list... Especially those aggressors... Yeesh Well, I have 2 lists Deathskulls and Bad Moons. Going to be resting them this weekend. ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [26 PL, 498pts] ++ Clan Kultur: Deathskulls + HQ + Dirgrok Mugkrumpah Warboss [4 PL, 90pts]: Da Killa Klaw, Kombi-Rokkit, Kunnin but Brutal, Power Klaw, Warlord Auto-Loader, Icon of Retribution, Indomitable, Ferocious Combatant Weirdboy [3 PL, 62pts] + Troops + Boyz [11 PL, 166pts]: 2x Tankbusta Bombs . Boss Nob: Choppa, Slugga . Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Rokkit Launcha . 20x Ork Boy W/ Slugga & Choppa Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin + Fast Attack + Shokkjump Dragstas [6 PL, 120pts] . Shokkjump Dragstas: Rokkit Launcha ++ Total: [26 PL, 498pts] ++ While Bad Moons seems more fun... ++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Orks) [27 PL, 499pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + Clan Kultur: Bad Moons + HQ + Big Mek Drakka Gloomblasta (Index) [5 PL, 84pts]: Kustom Force Field, Kustom Mega-blasta Direct Fire, Grot Assist Targeting*, Bigga Chaga**, Suppa Shot*** Dead Eye = * Auto Loader = ** High Caliber = *** Dirgrok Mugkrumpah (Warboss) [4 PL, 90pts]: Da Best Armour Teef Can Buy, Da Killa Klaw, Kombi-Rokkit, Power Klaw, Warlord + Troops + Boyz [11 PL, 157pts]: 2x Tankbusta Bombs . Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota . Ork Boy W/ 'Eavy Weapon: Big Shoota . 19x Ork Boy W/ Shoota Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin Gretchin [1 PL, 30pts]: 10x Gretchin + Fast Attack + Deff Kopta [5 PL, 108pts] . DeffKopta: Bigbomm (Index), Kopta Rokkits . DeffKopta: Bigbomm (Index), Kopta Rokkits ++ Total: [27 PL, 499pts] ++ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Rock Posted December 28, 2018 Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 Since we're bandying about lists, here's what I have based on my limited collection, tell me what you guys think. ++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [32 PL, 499pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Crimson Fists + HQ + Lieutenants [4 PL, 69pts] . Lieutenant: Bolt pistol, Power fist, Tenacious Opponent, Warlord + Troops + Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 89pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle . 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword Tactical Squad [9 PL, 100pts] . 4x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma . Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun + Elites + Apothecary [3 PL, 55pts] Company Ancient [4 PL, 72pts]: Power fist, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant Dreadnought [7 PL, 114pts]: Assault cannon . Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter ++ Total: [32 PL, 499pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe I was able to make a cheap Vanguard detachment to get *one more* CP. The biggest limitation I see is that I don't really have any way to reach out and touch someone past 30". I'm considering swapping the AC on the dread for a plasma cannon, to make it easier to deal with the odd light vehicle I might run into, but I'd be losing out on 3-4 shots per turn. Granted, better strength, AP, and range, plus the option to overcharge, and cheaper, as well, but still... also, what would I do with that extra 6 points? Marines don't have a lot of options for filling up little bitty points values. Thoughts? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyraeus Posted December 28, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 55 minutes ago, Sgt. Rock said: Since we're bandying about lists, here's what I have based on my limited collection, tell me what you guys think. ++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Space Marines) [32 PL, 499pts] ++ + No Force Org Slot + **Chapter Selection**: Crimson Fists + HQ + Lieutenants [4 PL, 69pts] . Lieutenant: Bolt pistol, Power fist, Tenacious Opponent, Warlord + Troops + Intercessor Squad [5 PL, 89pts]: Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt rifle . 4x Intercessor . Intercessor Sergeant: Power sword Tactical Squad [9 PL, 100pts] . 4x Space Marine . Space Marine Sergeant: Chainsword, Combi-plasma . Space Marine w/Special Weapon: Plasma gun + Elites + Apothecary [3 PL, 55pts] Company Ancient [4 PL, 72pts]: Power fist, Standard of the Emperor Ascendant Dreadnought [7 PL, 114pts]: Assault cannon . Dreadnought combat weapon w/Storm Bolter: Storm bolter ++ Total: [32 PL, 499pts] ++ Created with BattleScribe I was able to make a cheap Vanguard detachment to get *one more* CP. The biggest limitation I see is that I don't really have any way to reach out and touch someone past 30". I'm considering swapping the AC on the dread for a plasma cannon, to make it easier to deal with the odd light vehicle I might run into, but I'd be losing out on 3-4 shots per turn. Granted, better strength, AP, and range, plus the option to overcharge, and cheaper, as well, but still... also, what would I do with that extra 6 points? Marines don't have a lot of options for filling up little bitty points values. Thoughts? Looks like a pain for me to deal with Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted December 28, 2018 Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 9 minutes ago, Lyraeus said: what would I do with that extra 6 points? Marines don't have a lot of options for filling up little bitty points values. Thoughts? Swap the Intercessor Sergeant's Power Sword for a Power Fist? It's five points more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Rock Posted December 28, 2018 Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 That's a possibility. I also considered dropping his power sword to a chainsword and putting another regular bolter bro in the tac squad. Extra bodies on the field are always nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 28, 2018 Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 Just now, Ish said: Swap the Intercessor Sergeant's Power Sword for a Power Fist? It's five points more. Primaris version still hits at penalty, right? Depending on the opponent, the powersword can be the better option. I'd be hesitant to include only melee weapons with penalties to hit in any marine army. Granted, you've got regular attacks, but there are sometimes opponents that have penalties to hit in addition to penalties you already have with fist, and it can become disappointing if all your characters swing at great penalty. Just noting that if you drop the only power sword, for a fist, you'll have the Dreadnought at WS 3+, and everything will be 4+ with regards to your melee weapons that have any AP. Eldar comes to mind, but there are others. Not that TAU are a huge threat in melee, but my Dal'yth Sept relic is a -1 to hit for the character. I can put that on a model with a 2+ armor save. It would be sad to see marines falling back from TAU just because their ranged weapons were more impressive than their melee.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted December 28, 2018 Report Share Posted December 28, 2018 I think I'd rather have either the Tactical Squad or the Intercessor Squad be a full ten-man strong, leaving out either the Apothecary or the Ancient. At this point level, I feel the extra five Marines are worth it a bit more than the force multiplier support characters. I also think that when we get around to having that Doubles Game, the Crimson Fists and the Imperial Fists really ought to pair up. We should find a Black Templars player and make it a complete family reunion! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted December 29, 2018 Report Share Posted December 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, paxmiles said: rimaris version still hits at penalty, right? Depending on the opponent, the powersword can be the better option. I'd be hesitant to include only melee weapons with penalties to hit in any marine army. Yes, which effectively drops their WS 3+ to a WS 4+ (barring any other potential penalties or bonuses). But with three Attacks, base, an Intercessor Sergeant with a power fist can deal quite a bit of damage. Slap the Veteran Intercessors Stratagem on them, for +1 A +1 Ld, and they're punching well above their weight for a "rank and file" squad leader. My eventual goal is to have six full Intercessor squads (four bolt rifles, one assault rifles, and one stalker rifles) I'll probably only put fists on the assault rifle sergeant and two of the bolt rifle sergeants, then power swords for the other bolt rifles, and a chainsword for the stalkers. I also plan to model one non-sergeant in every squad with a back banner and a stowed chainsword on his belt, to mark him as the Corporal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 29, 2018 Report Share Posted December 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ish said: Yes, which effectively drops their WS 3+ to a WS 4+ (barring any other potential penalties or bonuses). But with three Attacks, base, an Intercessor Sergeant with a power fist can deal quite a bit of damage. Slap the Veteran Intercessors Stratagem on them, for +1 A +1 Ld, and they're punching well above their weight for a "rank and file" squad leader. My eventual goal is to have six full Intercessor squads (four bolt rifles, one assault rifles, and one stalker rifles) I'll probably only put fists on the assault rifle sergeant and two of the bolt rifle sergeants, then power swords for the other bolt rifles, and a chainsword for the stalkers. I also plan to model one non-sergeant in every squad with a back banner and a stowed chainsword on his belt, to mark him as the Corporal. My point isn't that WS4+ is bad, but that it makes them much more vulnerable to the effects of further negative penalties. Because WS5+ is terrible and WS6+ is near worthless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ish Posted December 29, 2018 Report Share Posted December 29, 2018 Yes, but that's where I'll have to just be careful to take steps to mitigate penalties. If my opponent has a unit that hands out -1 WS, I'll need to maneuver some unit that give re-rolls to hit or bonus attacks or whatever into range to support them. That's sort of the nature of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyraeus Posted December 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2018 Yay people are using this to get list ideas! More. Of. This! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Rock Posted December 29, 2018 Report Share Posted December 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Ish said: I think I'd rather have either the Tactical Squad or the Intercessor Squad be a full ten-man strong, leaving out either the Apothecary or the Ancient. At this point level, I feel the extra five Marines are worth it a bit more than the force multiplier support characters. I also think that when we get around to having that Doubles Game, the Crimson Fists and the Imperial Fists really ought to pair up. We should find a Black Templars player and make it a complete family reunion! I can't do the Intercessors, 'cuz I only have 8 of them, and the Apothecary and Ancient are there to fill out the Vanguard detachment for that precious CP. They're the cheapest Elites choice that wasn't totally useless for the price. I'm also fairly allergic to fielding non-WYSIWYG models, even when it's to my own detriment. Also, I absolutely agree that we should engage in some mutual Fisting together! My biggest concern, going back and looking at the list, is having enough bodies on the board to cap objectives. Two minimum sized squads aren't particularly great for taking and holding ground, even with an apothecary to keep them on their feet. I may have to break down and stick with a patrol detachment, as frustrating as that is. I suppose one CP isn't going to make or break the list... le sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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